0:02

Welcome to The Vici Code, where we unlock real stories of small business owners who've battled chaos, crushed doubt, and conquered their challenges. Faith, family, and finances. No fluff, just raw, honest conversations that decode the path to victory one story at a time. What is up? Thank you for joining us today as we explore our latest purpose-driven journey The Human Side of Tax, where we look at transitioning from corporate tax to purpose-driven entrepreneurship and how to scale a close-knit business while raising a family and leading with faith. In the world of tax and accounting, most people see numbers, balance sheets, and liabilities, but a true leader looks beyond the paper to see the families, the dreams, and the legacy those numbers represent. Vanessa Lay started her career in 2012 with Earhart, Keefe, Steiner, and Hotman, which was prior to merging with Plant Moran, the largest locally owned accounting and business consulting firm in the Rocky Mountain region. In this role, Vanessa cultivated a strong foundation for knowledge of tax law and IRS regulation while also working with several different industries, including multi-state corporations, oil and gas, real estate, and small business tax returns. Experience at EKS H is where Vanessa found her passion for helping and working with small businesses. Since 2016, the land company has prioritized what matters most for clients. But outside of the office, Vanessa enjoys time with her family. Like many of our guests, I met Vanessa in the trenches of Dan Martell's elite coaching group, and I'm very excited to host our second CPA to the show. Settle in for a powerful discussion about the intersection of high-stakes financial expertise and the deeply personal nature of family-run business leadership. Vanessa brings the technical rigor of a large-scale accounting firm to a boutique relationship-first model that aligns perfectly with the Vici Code ethos. Vanessa, welcome to the show. Thank you. Thanks for having me. And especially thank you for taking time. I know this is not the ideal time of the year, but Uh, this is when we had availability and we're dialed in, we're ready to go. So we're going to jump straight in, uh, with the professional breakthrough. Uh, let's go through the corporate giant to boutique leader. You started your career at EKS&H working with multi-state corporations and complex oil and gas returns. What was the specific breakthrough moment or challenge that made you realize your heart wasn't in big firm corporate climb, but in the intimate world of small business. Tax? To be perfectly honest, it wasn't even necessarily about the client at that time. I was still pretty young, and so I just knew that there were a couple things. One, I was tired of people telling me what to do and when to do it and when to be there. I didn't like the corporate hierarchy, the corporate gossip, you know, I couldn't play the corporate game. That's not what I'm about. And then the last part was I was, uh, I was lucky. My stepmom is an accountant and her partner who was a CPA was getting ready to retire and move to Florida. And so it was the perfect opportunity for me to exit corporate America and buy his list and then start our own firm. That's where then the— that's where it started to develop that my desire to help small businesses. Got it. How did you take that big firm technical knowledge and translate it into that close-knit company culture where you still know every client's name? It's getting harder and harder just because we're getting bigger, but I loved the training that I had because it gave me the processes and procedures that I needed to push down to a smaller firm so that it wasn't such a disaster, I guess we could say. So as a CPA, we still have our continuing education, so we still have to do all of that. We still have all that knowledge that we have to do. And I still have my contacts over at EKS Hinge, which is now Plant Moran. So even if I had questions or anything like that, I still have people to help if I need it. It's all about the network, right? Amen. Amen. So let's, uh, get in beyond the balance sheet. Uh, the Lay and Company website says, we look beyond the numbers written on paper. Can you share a candid story of a time you worked with a business owner who was facing maybe a life-changing event and how looking at their finances through a lens of empathy led to a better outcome than just filing, you know, a tax return? It's funny because finances and taxes are very intimate. So no matter what, for people to open up and actually talk about these things, obviously they, they have to trust you, right? So a lot of times I'll get on the phone with clients and we'll end up not even talking about the finance side of things. It's really the personal side of what it feels like to run a business. So One such example is a, a client. She owns a Pilates studio. You know, she has this inner guilt that she's doing very well financially and she wants her employees to also benefit. Well, they're the highest paid employees in her industry. She treats them very well. And I have to constantly remind her that she doesn't need to feel guilty about her success and how well she's doing because she is the one taking that risk, not the employees. It's a very, very different mindset. And so just trying to remind her of that and tell her that she is doing fine and she's doing everything right, you know, that's where I see the value. And then, you know, we talk about it and she, she really appreciates it. Yeah, you know, I think a lot of people stick with accountants that aren't great for them because we do— they— you tend to have that personal relationship. They just— sometimes your accountant knows more than anybody else, maybe more than your doctor knows, honestly, you know. So we do end up having these conversations that like, oh wait, we're supposed to be talking about taxes, right? You know, because usually it's just front-loaded with family and stress and this and that, and you just know so much. So because you know so much and you're— there's so intimate of a relationship, you're able to kind of help more and, and be able to, you know, the pain— see the pain points. Um, But in a world of automated tax software, how do you preserve the rapport over transaction model while still scaling your firm? This is one that we're currently implementing. So we are trying to automate basically anything that we can so that we can actually have more face-to-face time with clients. So instead of chasing documents, we're speaking to them about the things that matter. So the automatic reminders go out to say, hey, guess what, we're still missing this. And it's not our time that we're having to take that. You know, we've charged them for this amount of time. Something's doing that on the back end so we can have more value to them in their relationship on the front. End, more time in that conversation. And that's how I say it, you know, like we spend a lot of time in automation and streamlining things and finding new areas and new tools of how to be more efficient, what do we do? Do we spend more time on the beach? No, we spend more time on calls with clients and just getting to know them better. And if we're doing a good job, then obviously our phone's ringing because other people are hearing that we're so involved. And so we have, we're able to buy back our time, but give more investment into the business by working closer with those clients. So technology is definitely something that is your friend, especially if you're doing it right. Um, how do you educate your clients to view their taxes not as a burden but as a tool for their own. Business purpose? Double-edged sword, because there's so much social media out there, which is great, but then they also sometimes come with a preconceived idea of what they should be doing, even though it may not apply to their situation. So We've started sending out some monthly newsletters just with some information. You know, the, this one that was in January was start of the year. Let's make sure that we're already looking at the correct entity type. So, you know, you hear all of these things, but educating them on the things that we are already looking at so that they don't think that we're missing something has been a really big issue in the past. So just saying, hey, you know, yeah, we've looked at it, it, you know, it doesn't make sense to hire your kids or, you know, some of those kinds of things. It really just comes down to the communication and how we're presenting that information to them, which is where the technology and the tools really come in because we can show them, hey, we have this checklist, we went over this checklist. If you want to talk about it, we can talk about it, but these. Don'T apply to you. Right. I, it's. Every year it gets harder to fight the TikTok information battle of, you know, the tax strategist. And, you know, that is great for certain people. Not everyone can benefit from setting up an S corp and an LLC in Wyoming. And, you know, so definitely, you know, I call it training, but yet educating the client, but training them, um, from the second they come into as a new client is really important. And one of the One of the things that, um, I hit right off the bat, and they may not be a client of ours if this doesn't hit well, but like, you know, bookkeeping and tax work, that's not a sunk cost. That is an investment. And you gotta put— you gotta see it that way, uh, in order to not get emotionally tied to what happens, right? You know, bookkeeping is very much an investment, and if If you see it as a sunk cost, you're going to treat it as a sunk cost and you're not going to appreciate it. So that's, that's something that I like to train our clients on right off the bat. And if it hits well, then it's like, okay, cool. Here's the engagement letter. Looking forward to working with you. Let's dive in. But if they're kind of like, you know, really wishy-washy about, you know, the value that we offer and fees, and if they're very price sensitive, they're just— we know right off the bat they may not be the right fit for us. And there is that, that, you know, the H&R Blocks of the world that they will take them for that one week or two of the year and then disappear. And then there's no follow-up, there's no value, additional value from there. And there's, there's, there's, there's markets for, for every different person. But, you know, we take education and training very serious from, from onboarding all the way through to the end of the engagement. So I think that's really important. Yeah. And just one thing to add on that. I mean, tax expense is one of the biggest expenses in a person's life. So making the investment to ensure that it's done well and you pay the least amount that you can, that is— that's worth its weight in gold. And what I tell prospects or current clients that, yeah, this is what we're doing. Absolutely. And You know, for our listeners out there that, you know, maybe lured into these tax strategies, they're real, but a lot of times they're for higher net worth people. They're for— and they cost money, right? It costs money. You want to go get a cost segregation study? Yes, it'll lead to, you know, taking significant deductions on your rental properties. But you also got to shell out cash to get those cost segregations done. Those aren't cheap either. Plus the tax planning. I'm trying to get better with charging for my tax planning. A lot of times it's just been a part of like who I am and what I've done has just been synonymous with our conversations. But now that we have a lot of clients and I'm, I'm also now seeing the value of the tax strategies that we're putting in place, I got to get better at charging for it and really pushing it more towards the summer as well so that we're planning well in advance. But yeah, don't be, be, be careful with the social media stuff out there. It is, is there, there is some truth to it, but it's not also for everybody. So beware. Right. And especially because especially those cost segregation studies, sure, you might pay for it, but you might not be able to utilize it because of your status on your tax return. So and these are only things that your CPA is going to know. So yes, like, like you said, it's available, it's out there, but just be cautious. Be cautious. Yeah, it's good information. Hold on to it. Talk to your CPA about it. Don't assume that, you know, it's something that you can just start doing now. But let's, let's jump into some

more fun stuff. The pillars: 13:53

faith, family, fitness. We're obviously talking finances already, but let's talk about the Uh, you co-own the firm with Ellen Lay, as you already mentioned. Running business with family is a unique challenge. How do you— how do the, the Vici pillars of faith and family help you navigate professional disagreements or high-stress scenarios without damaging the personal bond? There's definitely ebbs and flows, and it's on both sides. And the only thing that fixes it is that open communication and clear definition of roles and duties. That's about it. We also are actually very good about separating the personal from the business. So when we speak at night, we're very clear about if it's a family conversation or if it's a business conversation. Like if the kids are around, it's always going to be about family. Sure. So we're very clear. We've made it very, you know, pretty much cut and dry. And then we also have decided you know, this is where we're going, this is the exit plan, and this is how we're going to get there. So just making those decisions together. But yeah, I mean, working with family has its own unique set of challenges, but it's also been really good because there's that trust. Yeah, exactly. So it's— you got to have the structure there because it's very easy to keep— to get distracted and have a family conversation during business hours or bring business into family time, which is something that No one wants to hear that at the barbecue, you know what I mean? Like at the pool, it's like, it's family time. Um, but yeah, I think, I think you have it set up, you gotta plan it, right? You gotta, you gotta have a plan in place of, of how it's going to be structured, uh, how your time's gonna be structured, how you're going to communicate with each other. Um, that's really important. Obviously, 9 times out of 10, when there's confrontation, it always leads to poor communication. So as long as you know, you're emphasizing good communication, proactive communication, over-communicating sometimes, um, that will definitely lead to a better outcome for sure. Yeah, I mean, we have a standing weekly meeting that we have blocked out an hour to discuss all things either, you know, business-related or this implementation for the new software-related, like, so we, we have that time built out And then we just stick to it. We, we, we can't not stick to it. And like you had mentioned earlier, I have a very clear line of work time and then

family time. 4: 16:35

00 PM Mountain Time, I am done working. I am focusing on my children. I will not be answering phone calls, answering emails. That's, that's done. And then as soon as the kids go to bed, you know, that's when the work can turn back on. But family is, it's the most important thing. So you have to give it the most time. That's why we do this. And it, that's why we have to do it right. Some people think, oh, I'm going to start a business because I want to work for myself and have more time for family. And that's, that's a good goal. Uh, but you got to do it right. Right. And having the right systems and the right leadership tactics, uh, have to be, have to be paramount, have to be number one on, uh, perfecting, uh, or becoming an expert in. Now let's talk about you. So you're the mother of 4 daughters. I have 4 kids. I know exactly how that feels. I don't have 4 daughters though. I can only imagine that's different. I have 1 daughter, 4 boys, different challenges for sure. How do you model courageous leadership for them while managing the demand of the. High-Stakes career? Great question. I don't know that I can answer. I just kind of do it, and I think that is one of the best ways to model, right? So going back to Elite, looking at some of the earlier videos from Dan and the team and then being part of the conversations now, I mean, just seeing that growth, right? And I know the kids are still pretty young, so they're not going to be able to see that until they're older, but they'll still be able to see the progression. And then I do, I talk to them about work and that I do need to work, but then also making sure that I'm taking care of myself by eating healthy and exercising, and that, that is part of. Our life. Yeah, and I, I love that question because it's always a different answer, but it's always similar because no one's got to figure it out and no one will ever have it figured out. It's going to always be a custom fit for everybody. You know, like, I wake up at 4 AM and I get most of my morning stuff done. And I feel like most of my day's conquered before I even enter the office. And then I, you know, do it. I put out fires with clients and I do what I got to do throughout the day. But that structure gives me what I can, what I need in order to be present when I am home. Like you, you're 4 o'clock your time. That's 4 or 5 o'clock around my time too. It will obviously creep past that once, you know, tax season hits, but you know, quality over quantity at that point. But everyone's system is different, but you have to have a system. Um, and my family, especially my wife, she's not the Type A structure kind of person. She's more creative and likes to be, you know, she doesn't like to have a plan. And I, and I have grown to appreciate that. So now I'm, I'm extra structured in my work life and in my extracurriculars so that When I am with them, it can be, well, what do you want to do? We want to just sit around, want to play Yahtzee, want to go ice skating. We can do whatever they want, right? We can play, uh, the yes game, uh, to whatever they want. So, um, yeah, that's— I— your answer is almost expected. Like, that— if you said that, hey, yeah, this is how you do it, that would be working for you, right? And maybe it works for some other people, but it's always different. And especially with You know, large families, the dynamic's always different. It's usually divide and conquer, right? You and, you and the husband are playing zone, zone defense at this point, just trying to be in so many different places at once. Yeah. And again, thankfully they're still pretty young, so there's not too many places to be yet. Yet. Uh-huh. Yeah. Well, speaking of which, mental fitness, right? Um, accounting is notoriously high stress, especially during filing season. What's your non-negotiable routine for fitness, whether, you know, mental or physical, to ensure you don't. Burn out? Uh, you know, I've really started the physical with, with joining Elite. It was definitely, you know, up and down, but getting that system in place— it sounds so silly, but seriously, listening to all the books and reading all the books and all the systems that need to be in place, even just in your personal life it makes sense because then it does allow for that flexibility of, well, what do you want to do? I don't know. What do you want to do? So it's

just following that system. So waking up at 5:00, 5: 21:16

30, getting my exercise done, then I can conquer the rest of the day. For the mental side of things, I just don't think that I can think about it because if I start to think about it, then it's going to be like, oh my gosh, what is happening? So you just go through it, just kind of got to power through. And then when you look back on it, you say, well, maybe I should have done that differently. And then you can implement that change going forward, and that's all you can do. So I think that's the important part though, right? You do reflect on it. What happened? Did it work? Did it not? Iterate. Do better going forward. I think that in and of itself is a great strategy, um, in the presence of maybe the lack thereof one. It's like, well, just gonna go, but I'm gonna reflect. And you have to do that. And I think the fitness piece is just like, there's no way you can go pro or elite, there's no way you can be operating at a high level without having that fitness, because you're gonna burn out, you're gonna especially during the winter. I think— I don't know if you guys have the same issue as we do in Syracuse, but in the winter there's a severe lack of sunlight in our region, so vitamin D is very scarce. I think where you're from is similar. No, no, no, wait, you guys are in Colorado. I'm way off. You guys got sun all the time. Yeah, so, so it's, it's even more important, uh, during the winter to, to stay on the grind and working out to get those endorphins going and just to feel good because, you know, the winter blues are a real thing. You know, whatever they experience like in like Alaska, it's like that in Syracuse. It's got some of the least amount of sunshine during the winter than any other spot. So yes, fitness is so important. Mental fitness is so important. And just having a pulse on them is really important. How does your faith anchor you when the regulatory landscape becomes overwhelming? You know, it's— again, it's just, I don't know that I think that much about it. It's just there and present, and it's just a matter of looking back on it, honestly, just evaluating it all the time, just the constant evaluation of what can we be doing better? Knowing that it's always going to be there. Yeah, yeah, no matter what. Yeah, it'll work out, right? You know, you've, you've, you've put the time into building the plan, the strategy, the systems. At some point, you just got to let it fly, right? And you just got to have faith that you did your best. And again, iterate, you know, review, see how it went, and iterate. Yep, absolutely. Um, how about, how do you maintain absolute integrity and, you know, secure the most beneficial outcome when the IRS regulations feel like they are. Constantly shifting? This, that's really a lot of continuing education, listening to, you know, the books and podcasts and things that are out there, but also making sure that it really is in the regs and the code and that what you are doing There's a lot of gray area, right? So it depends on the gray area that you want to be in and if you feel comfortable sticking behind it. Most of the times, I mean, taxpayer situations are pretty standard, right? There's a few that are the exception. Well, then you really need to get to know those exceptions and then that's. Where people start to niche, right? Yeah. Staying on top of things is so important and it's sometimes you're just like, where do you find the time? But you bring up a good point of like, podcasts and, you know, Audibles or whatever you said. But I, I think just finding time to stay in touch and, and, you know, periodicals and newspapers and magazines are a good way to do that. But information, information is the key to making decisions. So making sure that you're armed with that information and that you're making the best decision. I love the gray area, honestly, you know, it's like— but I tell my clients, I'm like, Documentation will save you always. We can do this, but if you're not going to be all in, if you're not going to put in the extra effort to, to, to, to achieve the reward that you're, that you're seeking, then don't bother because I'm not going down with you. Like, you know, you got to make sure you're documenting all these things and saying that you do all the things. Otherwise it won't stick. And you're not only going to, you know, get nailed to the cross. For, you know, an adjustment, but then they're going to hit you with penalties and fines. And it's— yeah, interest, which you can't ever get removed. Interest is like a non-negotiable. Once, once you get hit with interest, like, that's sticking. That's statutory. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, they won't make it— they will not let that go away. Nope, nope. And if you're in a position to have a, have an offer and compromise, bless your soul, like, that's the only time you'll get anything maybe reduced, but If you're, if you're in that situation, then you're already in, you know, tough waters. So, right, exactly. And I love to do what I think Dan calls it stacking, but if I'm in the car, I'm listening to Audible or something that is productive, not the radio. Yeah, yeah. And I oscillate between, because I don't do the radio at all, my family hates it. When I'm in the car with them, I try to do some radio, but because I sometimes forget, like, I've got my own process. It's like, it's either complete quiet and I'm, I'm, I'm with my thoughts, I'm with, you know, prayer, I'm with meditation, or I'm listening to a Dan Martell video from 2024, which, by the way, I listened to something from January 2024 yesterday, and I was thinking, I'm like, oh, I, I'm, I'm curious to see the difference between 2024 and now. It's exactly the same. The dude is a machine. I swear to God, it sounded like something he would have done yesterday. And I was shocked, although I guess I shouldn't be, but it just seemed— I think there was a different, um, Jen. I forget the name of the person that was on there in January '24, but there was somebody else, a different Jen Burton. But it was like exactly the same, Dan. I was like, this guy is an animal. Um, but yeah, so like, you know, I'll, I'll oscillate between complete and utter silence and what I'm doing there to be present, or, you know, stacking that with like listening to something that's helpful. So yeah, stacking is helpful. Have you read Atomic Habits yet? I have. It's been a while, but yeah, that is going to be going back on the list. I'm currently reading Napoleon Hill's Think and Grow Rich. Nice. Yeah, that's on my list for this year. It is. It's a little tough just because it's old. Um, so a lot of the people that, you know, he's talking about or interviewing, it's post, uh, World War II. Yeah. So, you know, the view of men and women are— men are, you know, much better than women in this one. So it's for sure, it's a little tough to listen to, but I think it's— you just have to listen to the content, not the words. Yeah, you should have the right mindset to take out the good and block out unnecessary, right? Pretty much. Yeah. Um, good. Well, we get into books, uh, in the, the second segment, so hold that thought. Um, what's the biggest piece of advice you have for a woman looking to lead a purpose-driven business while prioritizing. Her family? Clear boundaries. Very clear boundaries. And knowing that it's okay to have those boundaries. You also have to make sure that you do have the systems in place, and when things go awry, it's okay. Everything is fine. You'll fix it and you will. Move on. Boundaries. Yes, boundaries. That's number one. Number one. Love it. Well, we're, we're, uh, getting towards the end, and this is where I like to kind of recap a little bit. On, on some of the key takeaways. Um, one is, you know, the shift from transaction-based to relationship-based. Not only is it good for your business, but it's good for your soul. Like, be there for your client. We're, we're here for service. We see a lot— I see a lot of people that make a lot of money and they're not happy. They don't treat their clients well. They care more about the bottom line than they care about the relationship. The people that are the most successful, and this is not just a monetary thing, but I think it does translate into monetary success. The people that are most successful, the people that are most fulfilled and happy, they have that relationship-based leadership. And not just with their clients, with their team, with their family. It's almost like it's one big family and everyone gets it right. So, you know, coming to, coming to work under those circumstances feels like you're just going to an extension of your, of your home, of your family. And that's the way to do it. And then the power of family-run business, lots of opportunity there, lots. But also got to be careful. Got to have— again, I think I'm going to use your word— boundaries. You got to have boundaries, clear communication, and a system set up so that, you know, my sister and I, we could not work together and we've proven that. But we're both talented in our own right. But, you know, if you get— if you're into a family business, it's funny, so many people in Elite either they work with their spouse or somebody like very close family member. I've seen that. That is a common trend that I've noticed with a lot of the people that I've met is spouses working together. It's a superpower for sure if you can make it work. But I think again, boundaries and really good communication are essential to make that work. And then, you know, I finish off with, you know, how Lann Company help owners focus on their craft by taking tax burden off their shoulders. Uh, Vanessa, thank you so much for your transparency and for demonstrating that you can be both a technical expert and a heart-centered leader. Uh, I have one last thing. If you've, if you've experienced life-changing event or just want to, uh, an accounting firm that knows your name, visit LACO.Tax, connect with Vanessa and her team. She's on Instagram. She's going to be on Instagram a lot more this year. She's at Vanessa. Well, her, Her, her handle's going to be in the show notes, so I won't bother saying it, but her LinkedIn's also in the show notes. Colorado State, right? Yep. That's right. Colorado State Buffalo. And it's Laco.tax. Vanessa, thank you so much. And thank you for our listeners to The Vici Code. Keep listening with purpose and we'll see you on the next episode. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to The Vici Code, where the underdogs rise and the numbers finally make sense. If today's story hit home, share it. And remember, faith fuels a fight, and your comeback is already in progress.